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转个台湾佬讨论机油的贴,附个打脸截图

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141#
发表于 四川省 2018-4-11 13:54 | 只看该作者
另外楼主引用资料里有一个表格,对TBN的规定,A3/B4 是要求TBN大于等于10的。

其实我先前没关注过,我就知道MB229.5 已经非常长效了。看来果然如此。多一点车厂认证知识,什么磨损啊,燃油经济性啊,长效性啊,一看车厂认证就一目了然了,不用满世界找厂家原始新油分析数据了。
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142#
发表于 四川省 2018-4-11 13:57 | 只看该作者
一个A3/B4这样看似很平民的认证,TBN就达到10以上,随便就要摩特8100  或者 300V 里TBN最高的机油型号才能拿来比了。
看来我选API SL的机油,没毛病。  A3/B4  229.5  都要求HTHS 大于等于3.5 。(对于摩托而言,就是过剩了,想具体去查是3.6  还是 3.7,已经没有意义了。) 随便一个A3/B4  229.5 ,TBN就大于10了。(甭问我这类机油禁不禁用长不长效了)
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143#
发表于 四川省 2018-4-11 14:01 | 只看该作者
我看了下,连全球购的蓝壳,都是A3/B4认证,  TBN 都大于等于10 。    PK 7100 的长效性不要太轻松。

看来几个星期前我把7100的 性能,下调到蓝壳级别,是不冤枉的呵呵。但从另一个侧面,  灰壳,蓝壳 TBN都大于等于10,长效性却仍然相差不少。
这时候 TBN已经不足以描述长效性了,而是车厂认证来描述,229.5 确实会比229.3 长效。

楼主辛苦了,你引用的资料再次证明了汽油机油非常牛逼,就连蓝壳的TBN,都是可以杀7100的。
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144#
发表于 广东省 2018-4-11 14:10 来自手机 | 只看该作者
铁碗卤素10W 发表于 2018-4-11 19:00
然而300V钼硼这么高。很多低zddp的机油磨损分并不低,车厂认证也高。zddp其实是相对便宜的东西,钼硼少的 ...

硼钼抗磨剂的稳定性和抗氧化不如zddp
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145#
发表于 四川省 2018-4-11 14:18 | 只看该作者
网轮碟刹 发表于 2018-4-10 11:36
如果超出這範圍就沒有Energy Conserving或是Resource Conserving的描述。


踏板车的说明书禁止用 “节能” 认证机油,完全不出乎我的意料,为啥?

虽然 节能 机油用于踏板不会有离合打滑问题。 但是20 粘度的机油,API 认证里HTHS 只要求大于等于2.6 ,这远低于JASO 规定的摩托车HTHS不低于2.9 。   而20 粘度的机油,几乎清一色是节能节油。  对普通用户而言,无法区分。(30粘度的节能机油踏板可以用,20粘度的节能机油踏板不能用。)干脆就禁止使用“节能机油”,这样安全些。(其实很多30粘度的节能机油无辜躺枪了,因为30粘度的机油,API 要求HTHS最低不得低于2.9,是刚好可以达到JASO 要求的。)

         这其实说穿了不是节能机油造成磨损。而是20粘度的机油,HTHS大多都达不到摩托最低要求值2.9。20粘度的机油,你摩托说明书也不会推荐,摩托的最低使用粘度是30粘度的。
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146#
发表于 四川省 2018-4-11 14:56 | 只看该作者
为啥踏板说明书,也禁止用节能机油?

我能说30粘度的节能机油躺枪了吗?   20粘度的节能机油,踏板当然不能用。

一个图就能说清的事情,看懂的吱声。 顺便说说CJ-4 ,HTHS 动不动就能达到4.3  。哈哈!

为啥踏板也不主张用节能机油.jpg (67.74 KB, 下载次数: 167)

为啥踏板也不主张用节能机油.jpg
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147#
发表于 山东省 2018-4-11 20:48 | 只看该作者
铁碗卤素100W 发表于 2018-4-11 21:43
磷含量肯定不一样,劲霸R6  没有汽油机油认证,介意的勿用。(我个人不介意)
       我稍微有点介意的 ...

谢谢了,下次就换它试试
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148#
发表于 山东省 2018-4-11 23:44 | 只看该作者
jasonzx001 发表于 2018-4-11 15:38
你那个链接我打不开啊
能否截图上来看看呢
另外我结合各方资讯基本已经确认,所谓“钼导致离合打滑”基 ...

先贴一部分吧,摘要加简介和最后结论
Abstract
Organic friction modifiers (OFMs) are important additives in the lubrication of machines and especially of car engineswhere performance improvements are constantly sought-after. Together with zinc dialkyldithiophosphates (ZDDPs)antiwear additives, OFMs have a predominant impact on the tribological behaviour of the lubricant. In the current study,the influence of OFMs on the generation, tribological properties and chemistry of ZDDP tribofilms has been investigatedby combining tribological experiments (MTM) with in-situ film thickness measurements through optical interferenceimaging (SLIM), Alicona profilometry and X-ray photoelectron spectroscopy.OFMs and antiwear additives have been found to competitively react/adsorb on the rubbing ferrous substrates in atribological contact. The formation and removal (through wear) of tribofilms are dynamic processes which result fromthe simultaneous interaction of these two additives with the surface of the wear track. By carefully selecting thechemistry of OFMs, the formulator can achieve lubricants that generate ZDDP antiwear films of optimum thickness,morphology and friction according to the application-specific requirements.

KEY WORDS: Organic friction modifiers, Tribofilm, ZDDP, Friction, Boundary lubrication, XPS

1. Introduction
Modern engine oils contain a large number of additives, but the most influential on the tribological performance of thelubricant are antiwear zinc dialkyldithiophosphates (ZDDPs) and friction modifiers (FMs).
ZDDPs have been used in engine oils for more than 70 years and are probably the most successful antiwear additivesever discovered. In addition to being good antioxidants [1], they reduce wear by rapidly forming relatively thick,sacrificial boundary tribofilms with hardness characteristic to soft polymeric materials [2, 3].
The generation of ZDDP tribofilms on steel surfaces and their nature has been the main focus of published research. Ithas been shown that they form only on the rubbing tracks and are dependent on temperature [1]. On steel, tribofilmscan rapidly grow to a thickness >100 nm and have an uneven, pad-like distribution (typically 5 to 20 μm across),separated by deep fissures. A two layer model was proposed, where a soft polyphosphate film covers a more rigidoxide-sulphide layer chemisorbed onto the steel surface [2]. The chemistry of the ZDDP oil solution was reported toaffect the chemical make-up, thickness and mechanism of formation of the antiwear film [4]. The antiwear filmsformed by ZDDP have high boundary friction coefficients in the range of 0.11 to 0.14, which are maintained up to muchhigher sliding speeds than is normally the case. This is thought to be due to the unusual morphology of the reactionfilm [5]. To reduce the high boundary friction of the ZDDP tribofilms, it is especially important to use efficientfriction modifiers when formulating lubricants.
2Friction modifiers (FMs) can improve lubricity and thus energy efficiency by reducing the coefficient of friction (COF)in the boundary, and in some cases, also in the mixed lubrication regimes [6]. A direct application of this can be foundin engine oils, which contain FMs for fuel economy purposes.
Presently, there are two main types of FMs: organic friction modifiers and molybdenum compounds. Organic frictionmodifiers (OFMs) are surfactant-like molecules with long chains and polar groups (e.g. alcohol, amide, carboxylic acidand ester groups), which adsorb or chemically react on the polar metal surfaces to form dense monolayers (2 nm thick)or thick reacted viscous layers [7, 8]. Organic molybdenum compounds, such as molybdenum dithiocarbamate(MoDTC), generate nanosized single sheets of MoS2 dispersed in a carbon [9] or FeS2 [10] matrix. The MoS2 sheetsfacilitate sliding and thus lower friction between rubbing asperities.
Both antiwear and friction modifier additives work by reacting or adsorbing on the lubricated contact surface. Therefore, since these two types of additives are used together, it is important to understand the mechanism of action forgenerating the tribofilm and how these additives interact during this process. Unfortunately, at the present there is nosystematic understanding of the interaction of FMs with other lubricant additives. For this reason, the selection ofoptimal additive combinations for lubricant formulation primarily depends upon trial and error or past experience,rather than knowledge of fundamental chemical interactions.
Previously published work investigating the interaction between ZDDP and FMs mainly focused on ZDDP and MoDTC.The reason for the high interest in MoDTC is that aside from being a FM, it is also one of the most efficientnon-phosphorous antiwear additives [11], shown to synergize well with ZDDP to reduce wear and friction [10, 12-14].However, the downside of using MoDTC alone or in combination with ZDDP in oils is the formation of abrasive MoO3,which is conducive to high friction [15]. One study investigated the synergism between ZDDP and MoDTC andreported that there is a competitive adsorption on the rubbing steel surface between ZDDP and MoDTC, which resultsin a thinner ZDDP tribofilm [16].
The only published study which investigated OFMs besides MoDTC has proposed a different mechanism of action, inwhich FM additives form a friction-reducing film not on the ferrous surface, but on the zinc phosphate. Therefore, itwas recommended for FMs to be tested and optimized for effectiveness on the ZDDP films [17].
The objective of the current study was therefore to explore the interaction between ZDDPs and OFMs and to determinewhether this influence is susceptible to variations of the OFM additive type. To accomplish this objective, the workemployed various techniques to study the growth kinetics, the physical (thickness, morphology) and tribologicalproperties (friction and wear) and the chemical composition of tribofilms generated by ZDDP and three types of OFMs.

……
4. Conclusions
This study has investigated the influence of three organic friction modifiers (OFMs) of different chemistries on theZDDP tribofilm formation, composition and properties. The results show that the tribological properties of the fullyformulated engine oils significantly depend on their composition.
Tests carried out with fully formulated oils without OFMs (BLO) showed that the generated ZDDP tribofilm isnon-uniform and thinner (as shown by optical interference images), rich in calcium and poorer in zinc concentration(XPS spectra) than the BO+ZDDP films.
Whether in the presence or absence of other additives, OFMs can greatly influence the reaction of the ZDDP antiwearadditive with the steel substrate and consequently, the kinetics, thickness, composition and tribological properties of thetribofilm generated in the rubbing contact.
Depending on their chemical composition, OFMs can react with the wear track in rubbing contacts to generate owntribofilms (as in the case of BO+OFM B and BO+OFM C) which have kinetics and thickness comparable to the ZDDP tribofilms (BO+ZDDP).
In a tribological contact, the formation and removal (through wear) of tribofilms are dynamic processes controlled bythe interaction between the surface active additives and the lubricated contact surfaces. This is especially the case ofantiwear and OFM additives, which compete to react/adsorb on the rubbing ferrous substrates. The generation oftribofilms is the result of the simultaneous interaction of these two additives with the surface of wear track.When mixed into the fully additized oil (BLO), the three OFMs of various chemistries influenced the tribofilmgeneration and properties in particular ways. OFM B produced thin tribofilms (110 nm) and was very efficient atreducing friction (COF=0.09), while OFM A and C generated thick tribofilms (160 nm) but reduced friction to a lesserextent (COF=0.11).
Despite their different behaviour influenced by chemistry, all three OFMs have potential value for tribologicalapplications. In automotive transmission, where emphasis is placed more on wear protection than friction reduction,OFM C and OFM A, which generate thicker tribofilms could be more useful. Engine oils require high levels offriction reduction and fuel efficiency and could be formulated with friction modifiers similar to OFM B.The investigation of the effect of OFMs chemistry on ZDDP antiwear film performance will guide the formulator inselecting OFMs according the application-specific requirements.


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149#
发表于 四川省 2018-4-12 01:18 | 只看该作者
automan 发表于 2018-4-12 07:44
先贴一部分吧,摘要加简介和最后结论
Abstract
Organic friction modifiers (OFMs) are important addi ...

完全看不懂,有翻译不
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150#
发表于 山东省 2018-4-12 01:29 | 只看该作者
jasonzx001 发表于 2018-4-12 09:18
完全看不懂,有翻译不

我还没看完,就导语和结论而言,摩擦改进剂FM(Friction Modifier)对挤压抗磨剂EP(Extreme Pressure)Anti Wear agent,同时使用会减少后者的耐磨层,而矿物调和油和合成油中表现各不同,需要根据需要调整配比。
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151#
发表于 安徽省 2018-4-15 13:59 来自手机 | 只看该作者
jasonzx001 发表于 2018-04-11 14:21:22
非常详细的测试
你是什么车型呢?平时使用拉高转不,机头温度高吗?
在南方还...

e影110,从最冷零下七八度到盛夏40多度,和温度没关系,天冷天热都少机油,平时六十到七十之间,但经常超载,应该算拉高转了


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152#
发表于 四川省 2018-4-15 17:18 | 只看该作者
fjcxm 发表于 2018-4-15 21:59
e影110,从最冷零下七八度到盛夏40多度,和温度没关系,天冷天热都少机油,平时六十到七十之间,但经常超 ...

好的,谢谢如此详细的回复,感觉这才是真摩友的风格——严谨、翔实、不偏激。
听你这一说,我买好的那桶FS也只能按捺住,留给汽车用了
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153#
发表于 安徽省 2018-4-15 22:11 来自手机 | 只看该作者
jasonzx001 发表于 2018-04-16 01:18:31
好的,谢谢如此详细的回复,感觉这才是真摩友的风格——严谨、翔实、不偏激。
听你这一说,我买好...

也许fs不适合e影,你摩托车也可以用,隔500公里检查一下机油尺


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